Today’s Advertiser helped make the production and delivery of this episode possible. But the themes expressed by the guests do not necessarily reflect the views of Inside Reproductive Health, nor of the Advertiser. The Advertiser does not have editorial control over the content of this episode, nor does the Advertiser's sponsorship constitute an endorsement of the guest or their organization. The guest's appearance is not an endorsement of the Advertiser.
What if 25–35% of patients in the U.S., Canada, or Europe left for equal-quality IVF at a quarter of the cost?
In this episode we take you back to Mexico City, ground zero for what may be the next global IVF surge.
Juan Esteban Moctezuma, Co-Founder and Co-CEO of Reina Madre, and Daniel Madero, CEO of Fertilidad Integral, join the show to discuss:
The hub-and-spoke model fueling their growth
How they plan to scale egg freezing and IVF nationwide
Why they’re betting big on automated IVF labs from Conceivable
How tech, capital, and Ob/Gyn funnels could transform IVF care across Latin America
Why this may be one of the biggest untapped investment opportunities in global fertility care.
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Follow Conceivable Life Sciences on LinkedIn for exclusive updates from the AURA IRB study.
Measuring AURA’s automated IVF lab against today’s clinical benchmarks
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00:00:02:21 - 00:00:15:10
Speaker 1 - Juan Moctezuma
Mexico is already, a third or even less of the cost. Us as in the US. Right. And then, other has always been and will be about access and about delivering the best quality, but at lower cost.
00:00:15:12 - 00:00:45:12
Speaker 2 - Daniel Madero
That means that even though we used evidence based medicine at the treatment level, we are supporting the patient throughout. The experience with wellness is what we call it. So we have a psychologist and, nutritionist. We do acupuncture and massages.
00:00:45:14 - 00:01:09:10
Speaker 3 - Griffin Jones
What if a quarter or a third of your patients left the US or Canada or Europe to get equal quality IVF for a quarter of the cost in another country? What country could that be? If you saw what I'm seeing here in this stunning district of the largest city in North America, the answer would be heir apparent. Juan Moctezuma is the co-founder and co-CEO of Reina madre, which among other specialties, is one of the largest ObGyn networks in Mexico.
00:01:09:12 - 00:01:34:04
Speaker 3 - Griffin Jones
Daniel Madero is the CEO for Fertilidad Integral, one of the largest IVF groups in the city with two labs and three clinics. They talk about the hub and spoke model that each of their organizations are developing, how they plan to multiply the number of IVF and egg freezing patients in Mexico, how they plan to use technology like conceivable to scale IVF care and fill patient pipelines.
00:01:34:06 - 00:01:57:02
Speaker 3 - Griffin Jones
Starting with the ObGyn, they discuss the capital markets in Mexico and why it's one of the biggest opportunities for investment in health, tech and IVF on the planet. They're both sold on this automated IVF lab from conceivable, but why? They talk about why it's such an integral part of their strategy for vast expansion. Joy.
00:01:57:04 - 00:02:18:23
Speaker 4
Today's advertiser helped make the production and delivery of this episode possible for free to you, but the themes expressed by The Guest do not necessarily reflect the views of inside reproductive health, nor of the Advertiser. The Advertiser does not have editorial control over the content of this episode, and the guest appearance is not an endorsement of the Advertiser.
00:02:19:01 - 00:02:44:14
Speaker 3 - Griffin Jones
Mr. Moctezuma, Juan, welcome to the Inside Reproductive Health podcast. Mr. Madero, Daniel, Danny, my friend, welcome back to the Inside Reproductive Health podcast. This time in person, this time on your turf. Looking forward to talking to both of you. Tell me a little bit, Juan, about the business model of Reyna madre, which is a large ObGyn group, a large group, a few different specialties as I understand.
00:02:44:14 - 00:02:52:03
Speaker 3 - Griffin Jones
But tell me a little bit about Reyna madre at the global level. And then specifically in in an area.
00:02:52:05 - 00:03:20:08
Speaker 1 - Juan Moctezuma
Of course. It's a pleasure to be here. Thank you for the invitation. So, both Reyna madre and Maria Linda, we are the largest network of ob gyn pediatrics and dermatology in in Mexico. We have a chain of 14 clinics throughout four states with a plan of going national in the years to come. And entering into ob gyn, we have a network of over 120 abortions.
00:03:20:10 - 00:03:55:15
Speaker 1 - Juan Moctezuma
We have, five areas recently, in the last five years, and we are hoping to increase a lot. Our outreach, in terms of fertility, right now, we provide about 500,000 consultations in the three specialties that I mentioned at the beginning. Fertility is a very nascent, niche that we are covering, today. But with the help of of conceivable, we are sure that we will be able to, expand our access and reach much more, families.
00:03:55:17 - 00:04:03:15
Speaker 3 - Griffin Jones
And that's so right now with those five areas, no IVF labs, you use other folks, IVF labs. That. Right.
00:04:03:15 - 00:04:23:15
Speaker 1 - Juan Moctezuma
Exactly. So, so we mainly, are partnering with Hope IVF, nowadays and these five areas, we've given over 10,000 consultations in over three years, about 350 treatments on more than 100, IVF. But we we're hoping to increase the number significantly.
00:04:23:17 - 00:04:44:12
Speaker 3 - Griffin Jones
Of those 120 OB GYNs. How much of what they're doing involves gynecological surgery related to fertility? Are many of those 120? Are they just practicing obstetrics? Are they doing delivery in hospitals? Tell me about what they're doing and what they might be doing. As you go further down the road of Roe, I sure.
00:04:44:12 - 00:05:15:21
Speaker 1 - Juan Moctezuma
So today, are over. Provide about 25,000 consultations per month. And that's mainly, prenatal care that that's our core. We, deliver about 500 new babies per month in a chain of on a network of partner hospitals that that we have in the 14 clinics. And the other half is normal ob gyn. So they're they are not really doing any fertility, specialized fertility nowadays.
00:05:16:02 - 00:05:21:06
Speaker 1 - Juan Moctezuma
But we are hoping to change that then. And we'll talk about that. Here.
00:05:21:08 - 00:05:36:11
Speaker 3 - Griffin Jones
Denny, when you were last on the podcast, I couldn't believe it had been that long. You weren't even the CEO of Fertilidad Integral yet. I think you may have been in talks with them, but for the last year and a half, you've been running one of the biggest centers here in Mexico City. Thank you for increasing my Latam audience.
00:05:36:11 - 00:05:54:21
Speaker 3 - Griffin Jones
Last time you were on the Latam audience increased. And so like to see those numbers go up some more hit subscribe. So tell me a bit about what you've learned in the last year. And a half. What have you seen from this IVF center that maybe you hadn't seen before or or just now that you're running one?
00:05:54:21 - 00:05:55:23
Speaker 3 - Griffin Jones
What's it been like?
00:05:56:01 - 00:06:21:16
Speaker 2 - Daniel Madero
So we are three clinics now. We have two full clinics, and we have a satellite clinic hub and spoke in Toluca, the same place where they have a hospital. This past year and a half has been very eye opening. So coming into Fertilidad integral, I had a view of IVF that's more traditional and in line with what we are used to seeing in the US.
00:06:21:18 - 00:06:59:15
Speaker 2 - Daniel Madero
But Fertilidad integral is focused on providing integral treatment. So holistic treatment, that means that even though we use evidence based medicine at the treatment level, we are supporting the patient throughout the experience with wellness is what we call it. So we have a psychologist and, nutritionist. We do acupuncture and massages, and we include this as part of the treatment for patients going through IVF, be it freezing their eggs for preservation or trying to conceive.
00:06:59:17 - 00:07:09:10
Speaker 3 - Griffin Jones
You talked a little bit about hub and spoke. So right now to IVF labs with those three clinics. Is that the case or where do you see the hub and spoke model going?
00:07:09:12 - 00:07:33:17
Speaker 2 - Daniel Madero
One of the things that we've seen with our satellite clinic is we have a big population of patients that. So for context, Mexico City is a country. It's massive. And then when we talk about Mexico City, you also have Mexico State, which is basically the surrounding area around Mexico City. But it's a different state.
00:07:33:17 - 00:07:36:23
Speaker 3 - Griffin Jones
So like LA and LA County, but bigger, correct.
00:07:37:01 - 00:07:38:19
Speaker 2 - Daniel Madero
24 million people.
00:07:38:21 - 00:07:40:14
Speaker 3 - Griffin Jones
In the city or in the state.
00:07:40:16 - 00:08:15:07
Speaker 2 - Daniel Madero
In city and state. So we are seeing that a lot of people within the state are still two, three hours away, drive from Mexico City from our main lab. So we want to disrupt their everyday life as little as possible. So we're building this satellite clinics to try to get closer to them. So that drive is no longer two hours, but 30 45 minutes where they're going to have to do most of the treatment, their stimulation, follow ups, and then only be at the clinic for retrieval and transfer.
00:08:15:08 - 00:08:22:21
Speaker 2 - Daniel Madero
That means that they only have to travel twice if they're doing IVF, or ones if they're doing egg freezing.
00:08:22:22 - 00:08:36:17
Speaker 3 - Griffin Jones
Juan, do you see Reina madre getting into this hub and spoke model as well? Do you see yourselves being more of the spokes funneling into hubs like Hope, IVF or Fertilidad Integral. What's your vision for this?
00:08:36:19 - 00:08:59:09
Speaker 1 - Juan Moctezuma
Yeah, sure. So we're thinking of doing something that has worked, very well for us in new deliveries. So we started in Toluca having our own hospital inpatient clinic with 20 with 20 rooms. And the way we expanded, we we were talking to the owners of these big, hospital groups, such as the Star Medical Center in Killeen.
00:08:59:09 - 00:09:23:20
Speaker 1 - Juan Moctezuma
And they said, like, okay, if you bring me all of your volume, of course we'll give you, great prices. So we like that idea. We see ourselves. That's our very low CapEx, model going forward. And we don't want to own a single lab in IVF, but we want to do hundreds or even thousands of IVF. And I think that's where where, hope IVF and conceivable enter for us.
00:09:24:00 - 00:09:37:17
Speaker 3 - Griffin Jones
So you've we're here at hope IVF and conceivably ora is here on site. What have you been looking at the past couple of months and how do you see it growing into your system.
00:09:37:19 - 00:10:00:23
Speaker 1 - Juan Moctezuma
Sure. So so I think the key for us is to empower our OB GYNs to be able to be the first point of contact and, training them and giving them all the tools so they can refer to our areas and, and then, to patients to come to one of the spokes, such as hope, IVF. So the main, main point is our doctors.
00:10:01:01 - 00:10:05:19
Speaker 3 - Griffin Jones
Don't you see that going the same way? Do you see the OB GYNs being the front line?
00:10:05:21 - 00:10:35:07
Speaker 2 - Daniel Madero
This is a place where most of the markets that I've seen are similar. There is a clear break between rise and OB GYNs, and one of the biggest challenges that we have anywhere really, is how to actually bring that gap closer together. Here in Mexico, we are starting to pilot some programs with OB GYNs in order to empower them as well.
00:10:35:09 - 00:11:01:04
Speaker 2 - Daniel Madero
In this case, as you know, I've worked I was working with Levy last time I was in this podcast. So with Levy with translated the product, and we're going to start putting it in the hands of doctors so they can be kinds so they can start, doing more with less, meaning they don't have to get educated in order to get to a concrete diagnosis.
00:11:01:06 - 00:11:23:09
Speaker 2 - Daniel Madero
But we can give them tools so they can get there faster. And once we have, diagnosed patient with a treatment line that we need to follow, then we work with those who begins to either bring those patients to Fertilidad Integral or work with them in the stem, and then doing the retrieval and everything else, and certainly integral.
00:11:23:11 - 00:11:49:17
Speaker 2 - Daniel Madero
But this is a pilot and I'm hoping this works. And you've seen it one. Right. Like you have access to hundreds of OB GYNs that are seeing patients on a daily basis. And in fertility, it's 1 in 6 that, in fact, that's affected like 1 in 6 patients that will be affected. So a lot of patients that are getting to your OB GYNs will either today or down the line, need treatment at some point.
00:11:49:19 - 00:12:03:00
Speaker 2 - Daniel Madero
So bridging that gap is going to be key for the success of, I guess, what you're doing with what we want to achieve with conceivable as well. And for us moving forward.
00:12:03:02 - 00:12:23:09
Speaker 3 - Griffin Jones
Do you see these pilot programs being able to replicate in the United States, or is there anything specific about the health care system in Mexico that makes the testing of this hub and spoke model either easier, or just makes Mexico more logical place to do it? First?
00:12:23:11 - 00:12:42:22
Speaker 1 - Juan Moctezuma
Sure. So so I mean, Mexico is already, a third or even less of the costs us as in the US, right. And the other has always been and will be about access and about delivering the best quality, but at lower cost. So, so for us the game means volume. And with volume comes, lower costs on lower prices.
00:12:42:22 - 00:12:56:17
Speaker 1 - Juan Moctezuma
Talk to our patients. So, today I don't see, that that's so clear. In the US, I see more for the US patients to come to Mexico. Really to be, to be honest. But that's my opinion, I don't know.
00:12:56:19 - 00:13:11:19
Speaker 2 - Daniel Madero
And I'm going to speak from experience of working in the U.S here. I think that one of the bottlenecks that the US currently has is the amount of rice that are coming out every year. You know these better than I do.
00:13:11:20 - 00:13:13:01
Speaker 3 - Griffin Jones
60 last year.
00:13:13:03 - 00:13:14:22
Speaker 2 - Daniel Madero
And how many retired?
00:13:15:00 - 00:13:17:08
Speaker 3 - Griffin Jones
I don't know, I actually want to find that number.
00:13:17:09 - 00:13:41:18
Speaker 2 - Daniel Madero
Exactly. So I think the we're going to get to a point in which we might have in the US more rice, retiring than those coming into the market. But talking about Mexico, we actually have a steady flow of rice. The main challenge that we have in Mexico is that a lot of those rice and the practicing traditional ob gyn as well.
00:13:41:20 - 00:14:18:16
Speaker 2 - Daniel Madero
So there are things that we can bring from the American market, which is something that we are trying to do vertically integral focus those rice in doing what they're best at and putting those acquired that acquired knowledge into action. So just focusing on, fertility and then augmenting them. So we're thinking about augmenting or begins trying to get more people in through the door to, fertility treatments, but also here in Mexico, we need to get more rice doing just reproductive endocrinology.
00:14:18:18 - 00:14:23:06
Speaker 3 - Griffin Jones
Why is it the case that there's a steady flow of rice in Mexico? What's producing that?
00:14:23:08 - 00:14:54:03
Speaker 2 - Daniel Madero
Multiple programs across the, across the country. But this is more of, particularity of the of Mexico. So in the US, if you just had more programs graduating, rice, that would be great. Here in Mexico, we just have more programs graduating rice. And you'll have, you know, 2 or 3 areas graduating from where I'm program and other ones turning out like 4 or 5.
00:14:54:05 - 00:15:01:21
Speaker 2 - Daniel Madero
So we have, compared to the population, a lot more graduating than in the US.
00:15:01:23 - 00:15:13:16
Speaker 3 - Griffin Jones
Why is it the case that so many of them are practicing obstetrics? Is that because there's not enough economic demand for IVF, or is it just what they're used to?
00:15:13:18 - 00:15:50:00
Speaker 2 - Daniel Madero
The latter is a good one. I think it's that's a multi-pronged answer. Tradition is one of them. I think they like to, you know, they do this subspecialty, but they also like surgery. So they still do surgical procedures and they also have their own patients. So they like to do ob gyn. And what that creates in the market is also this dynamic in which a lot of the OB GYNs don't like to send rice their patients because they think and it sometimes happens, that they will keep those patients all the way to delivery.
00:15:50:02 - 00:16:11:21
Speaker 2 - Daniel Madero
But it's market dynamics. That's one thing. The other one is there aren't enough places that are hiring rice just to practice reproductive and archeology. So that's the second particularity here. We are not seeing enough places where those areas can just focus on IVF.
00:16:11:23 - 00:16:20:17
Speaker 3 - Griffin Jones
Is that because there's something broken in the pipeline, or that there's not a pipeline established for bringing in IVF patients?
00:16:20:19 - 00:16:48:01
Speaker 2 - Daniel Madero
That, and also the market has been somewhat stagnated over time. So there needs to be a push in making that pie bigger. And I think with Reno already starting to make a push with conceivable, we're also excited about joining forces with conceivable, we can increase that potential and open doors for rice to just do, IVF.
00:16:48:03 - 00:17:17:14
Speaker 2 - Daniel Madero
Getting one IVF patient is costly. Going out there and finding an IVF patient is expensive. If you're going to be doing direct to consumer marketing. And you know this because you work with a lot of clinics, but if we can generate a steady flow of patients for those areas, I think we can shift that dynamic into one that we can have them practice solely.
00:17:17:16 - 00:17:22:09
Speaker 3 - Griffin Jones
Hence the pipeline. Is there any major? Is that a private equity backed group?
00:17:22:11 - 00:17:24:21
Speaker 1 - Juan Moctezuma
Yes. Family office from from Monterrey.
00:17:24:23 - 00:17:47:12
Speaker 3 - Griffin Jones
So I want to talk a little bit about the capital. That seems to have been injected in Mexico City. Last time I was here was 2010, and it was a pretty city and had great universities. And there have always been nice neighborhoods. But here we're basically in Bel-Air. We're basically in Beverly Hills. You walk around in the nicest of restaurants, the nicest of cars, the nicest of houses.
00:17:47:14 - 00:18:09:12
Speaker 3 - Griffin Jones
It seems like a lot of capital has come in that the capital has caught up to the size of the city, to the educational infrastructure that's here. Is that been the case? Is it is this is this money mostly coming from Mexico? Is it coming from outside of Mexico? Tell me about the capital ecosystem.
00:18:09:14 - 00:18:32:13
Speaker 1 - Juan Moctezuma
Sure. So so something to remember in health care and particularly in Mexico, is that only 8% of the population is is insured. Right. So probably of all the IVF cycles in the entire country, 90 to 95% I would say is out of pocket. So the insurance part of it is still still very nascent, with a lot of opportunity.
00:18:32:13 - 00:19:00:10
Speaker 1 - Juan Moctezuma
If you put your optimistic glasses, there's a huge market opportunity out there, for a rainy day, for example, we are 100% out of pocket. All our population based out of. And we're targeting the middle income segments, but there's a huge, need and a huge demand for IVF and reproductive services. So, capital is there ourselves are in the process of of making another, round of capital.
00:19:00:10 - 00:19:11:10
Speaker 1 - Juan Moctezuma
And there's, a lot of the men that and a lot of, people interested. So I think, we're at a prime time in Mexico, as you are mentioning, to raise capital and to enter healthcare in particular.
00:19:11:15 - 00:19:21:08
Speaker 3 - Griffin Jones
For context for the audience. Normally when we talk about a percentage of the population having insurance, we're talking about IVF coverage. But in in our case, we're talking about health insurance, period.
00:19:21:12 - 00:19:21:23
Speaker 1 - Juan Moctezuma
Private.
00:19:22:00 - 00:19:25:07
Speaker 3 - Griffin Jones
8% of the Mexican population has health insurance.
00:19:25:07 - 00:19:26:05
Speaker 1 - Juan Moctezuma
Has private has.
00:19:26:05 - 00:20:06:00
Speaker 3 - Griffin Jones
Private health insurance. And so you're asking me will probably be 1% or fewer. Have any kind of coverage for IVF. So the capital is there. Tell me about the technological infrastructure that has been, has been happening because Trump tariffs aside, it seems that there's been this this reshoring and this re industrialization of North America and that part of the strategic plan for the US at least, has been that lower cost but higher education workforce from Mexico, particularly on the tech side.
00:20:06:02 - 00:20:12:15
Speaker 3 - Griffin Jones
Give me give us some background on, the tech investments in the tech workforce here.
00:20:12:16 - 00:20:41:22
Speaker 2 - Daniel Madero
I'm going to lead that off with did you know that Nvidia is building the biggest mega factory in Guadalajara, Mexico, which is where conceivable, was developed? That gives you an idea of the way that big tech is looking at Mexican talent, and also the injection of capital that you're seeing into the market. You also have a lot of Mexican capital, so you're backed by a family offices.
00:20:42:00 - 00:21:12:10
Speaker 2 - Daniel Madero
Family offices here have big pockets, and they have the capacity to fund a lot of these technical technological innovation that's going to be happening. And moving forward. We have conceivable to how to but from the healthcare perspective, you can see big hospital groups as well. You are becoming one of them. There's your competitor called plena, but they're VC backed, as we are.
00:21:12:10 - 00:21:44:13
Speaker 2 - Daniel Madero
But you also have hospitals, Mike, you have star medic, Arjuna coming in from Peru. So you have a lot of capital coming into Mexico, either from Mexican capital, but also because the Mexican market is incredible. So I'm going to speak from my perspective, one being Colombian working, having worked in the US, in in Europe before, the Mexican market is incredible in terms of the opportunity that you see.
00:21:44:15 - 00:21:50:02
Speaker 3 - Griffin Jones
Mexico, not just the capital market, but you're talking about the entire the opportunity in the marketplace, right?
00:21:50:04 - 00:22:17:02
Speaker 2 - Daniel Madero
Mexico City is 22 million people, 24 million people. Their margin of error is a city, a big city in Europe. That's how large Mexico City is. Chilean goes the people from Mexico City, they talk about provincia, which is this like smaller cities, the smaller cities are 6 million people. Monterrey. Well, O'Hara and then you have other populations like Puebla, 2 million people.
00:22:17:04 - 00:22:32:17
Speaker 2 - Daniel Madero
That's a large European city. That's a large city in America. So the market, be it capital or for any type of product that you can come up with, will work in Mexico so that you.
00:22:32:19 - 00:23:02:04
Speaker 1 - Juan Moctezuma
Well, I like that foreigners are always so optimistic, but I share that that view and I think we're in, prime time. That's why I'm mentioning a lot of investments, not only in health care, but also, neobanks, emerging and being, strong competitors such as Clara and, clip and, and a lot of, of businesses that are already reaching, unicorn status and, are growing quite successful.
00:23:02:05 - 00:23:27:08
Speaker 3 - Griffin Jones
So you have this talent base, there's a large gap in cost, as you mentioned, healthcare costs very often. A third, and in the case of IVF might even be a quarter, but it doesn't seem to be that gap in quality. So you have a lot of people from the United States coming to Mexico for care. And Alejandro Chavez very well has said that a third of the patients that is Guadalajara, Guadalajara office come from the US.
00:23:27:10 - 00:23:31:14
Speaker 3 - Griffin Jones
Tell us about the US patients that you're seeing.
00:23:31:16 - 00:24:04:10
Speaker 2 - Daniel Madero
So we're seeing US patients come from the US, but also we are serving the expat market here in Mexico City anywhere. And a fourth of our patients come from the US. They fly down to get treatment. And about 35% are non Mexican. We are right now at Benchmark in Vienna consensus meaning that we're up there with the best clinics in Europe, and we can compare our numbers to the best clinics in the US as well.
00:24:04:12 - 00:24:28:07
Speaker 2 - Daniel Madero
One of the beauties in our space is that when you have the right technology, the right training, medications are going to be the same. Stimulation protocols are going to be caught up on pretty quickly. You just need to go to ESRI or SRM to learn the latest, and then you can bring that knowledge and implement it in your probably state of the art lab.
00:24:28:09 - 00:24:55:00
Speaker 2 - Daniel Madero
So across the board, IVF numbers are going to be like outcomes are going to be similar. We pride ourselves in being very meticulous, both at the Evidence-Based, treatment level, but also within the lab. So we have a state of the art lab, and this means that we can track at a granular level, temperatures in all our services, in all our equipment, be it.
00:24:55:02 - 00:25:03:21
Speaker 2 - Daniel Madero
Thanks. We had incubators, be it, stations, but we are at the highest level of outcomes that you can find.
00:25:04:02 - 00:25:06:20
Speaker 3 - Griffin Jones
Are you able to share the costs for an IVF cycle?
00:25:06:20 - 00:25:42:09
Speaker 2 - Daniel Madero
For sure. It would be $120,000, which is about $6,000 in meds is going to be between 2 and $3000, actually less between. Yeah, let's say $23,000. And then if you want to do PGT, that's going to set you back about $400 per embryo. All in all, you're going to end up spending with trip stay everything 11 to $12,000 for your whole IVF treatment.
00:25:42:11 - 00:26:06:20
Speaker 1 - Juan Moctezuma
And if I may add something important like, we've been hearing that in the States, for example, wait times, are six months or even a year, right? In, in Mexico, it's extremely fast. You can have your appointment, the next day or the next week at the most. And you have a very personalized care, like all the way since entering, like, as Danielle is saying, we're going to pamper you.
00:26:06:20 - 00:26:13:14
Speaker 1 - Juan Moctezuma
We're going to be with you all this step of the way. We really, really, take care of you from start to to finish.
00:26:13:16 - 00:26:36:19
Speaker 3 - Griffin Jones
It's it's incredible. I can't yeah, if you could have that price for an IVF cycle and be in Bel Air and it's, it's almost like why not if you're, if you have to go through something extremely stressful, why not go do it in a very nice setting for less, for also for less money. So I see that opportunity.
00:26:36:19 - 00:26:55:13
Speaker 3 - Griffin Jones
I don't think wait times are that long in the US, or at least they haven't been since Covid. I mean, it's probably a couple lucky doctors with really long waitlists like that, but in Canada that that does tend to be the case in some places where they can't get to see you very then four months or so. And so this is an opportunity for some of these folks.
00:26:55:15 - 00:27:11:13
Speaker 3 - Griffin Jones
What opportunities are you seeing with regard to AI in emerging technologies, or what specific applications are you seeing for them across your health system? What are you really paying attention to? What are you investing in now, specifically?
00:27:11:15 - 00:27:37:17
Speaker 2 - Daniel Madero
I think I might name a few of the companies that we work with that a lot of your audience is going to know. We recently, started, working with eLife. So we're using their embryo tool. And it's it's been great because we've actually have access to the full AI capability of the tool. I think that's an advantage that we have as a market compared to the US.
00:27:37:17 - 00:28:19:19
Speaker 2 - Daniel Madero
We can use a lot of these AI tools at their full capacity, even prior to any clinic in the US. We are also using AI to better communicate with patients. And we're leveraging AI to look at our data. We're using Foley scan from MIM to make the process of follicular counts friendlier for the patient. So instead of it taking ten minutes, this takes a three second video that you can get done in three minutes or less, and then spend more time with the patient sitting in front of you.
00:28:19:21 - 00:28:39:15
Speaker 2 - Daniel Madero
So we are leveraging AI in improving the patient experience through communication, through making the treatment more efficient, and also in improving outcomes with tools like a life and some others that we are starting to test out.
00:28:39:17 - 00:29:00:06
Speaker 1 - Juan Moctezuma
In our cases. Mainly we have a very big team, in call center, we have over 60 people and we are streamlining that with, with third party company. But in order for us to be able to have a much better interaction, with the patient and of course, with conceivable, we're very excited as well to, to join forces with them.
00:29:00:11 - 00:29:20:02
Speaker 3 - Griffin Jones
Does that include does that call center investment, does that include scheduling. So you automating scheduling is that is that part of what's happening. And then are you automating the patient journey in certain places so that you know, if they need labs or, any, any of the next steps are, is that happening in automation or not quite yet?
00:29:20:04 - 00:29:50:05
Speaker 1 - Juan Moctezuma
So the first phase, let's say it, it's going to be appointment that agenda scheduling and so forth. We were last week in, in Brazil meeting different companies. And for example, we were thinking of partnering with a company, care code. And they are building their own agents and we are, pilot testing in a few months time, probably having our own agents to have an interaction and to be able to, have the first diagnosis and to be able to, talk to the patients as a first, step.
00:29:50:07 - 00:29:57:23
Speaker 1 - Juan Moctezuma
Yeah, we like, at, 1 a.m. or 2 a.m. or if it's, kind of on an emergency then.
00:29:57:23 - 00:30:01:03
Speaker 3 - Griffin Jones
And you said you're excited about conceivable. What are you excited about?
00:30:01:05 - 00:30:40:03
Speaker 2 - Daniel Madero
One of the things that absolutely blew my mind when I first saw the robot at work was its capacity to make very specific changes at a, microscopic level in the process of doing things like moving the micro manipulator at this speed instead of that speed. When you walk into an IVF lab, what you're seeing is a very manual way of doing things, and one of the most amazing things of seeing this happen is seeing the embryo at the end of the day.
00:30:40:05 - 00:31:14:20
Speaker 2 - Daniel Madero
But when you start having standardization within the lab, you can start playing around with the amount of things that, that you do. So I was talking to Alejandro Ro, a few months back, and there is I used to watch a lot of, biking bicycles. And in the UK, the Sky Team Ineos now used to be like the laughing stock of biking, until they hired this guy called Sir Richard Brailsford.
00:31:15:00 - 00:31:16:02
Speaker 2 - Daniel Madero
If I'm going to say Richard.
00:31:16:02 - 00:31:16:22
Speaker 3 - Griffin Jones
Branson, is.
00:31:16:22 - 00:31:17:10
Speaker 2 - Daniel Madero
It. No. No.
00:31:17:10 - 00:31:19:11
Speaker 3 - Griffin Jones
But okay, so somebody that we haven't.
00:31:19:11 - 00:31:51:06
Speaker 2 - Daniel Madero
Heard of know. So this guy they made him the team lead. And he came with this philosophy of saying let's find incremental gains, let's say marginal gains. And by changing small things like nutrition, sleep, standardizing and personalizing training for each one of their athletes, within two years, they became the best team and they had this hedge money hegemony.
00:31:51:12 - 00:32:10:21
Speaker 2 - Daniel Madero
Is that word? Yeah. Think so. Okay. Good in biking for almost 8 or 9 years where they were not be they were not beat by any other team. And this was because they were making small changes. Now imagine being able to do that in the IVF lab all at once.
00:32:10:21 - 00:32:23:17
Speaker 3 - Griffin Jones
Because when you're automating the entire process and you have robotics and AI throughout the entire process from retrieval to transfer, it's riddled with potential incremental, correct opportunities.
00:32:23:17 - 00:32:50:22
Speaker 2 - Daniel Madero
So it becomes, 1% or a point 5% times appalling, 5.5%. So 1% times up 0.3%. It's compounding. So the final effect might be 30% higher than what we're seeing today. Anywhere from finding more eggs to getting more embryos to having more accurate PGT, you name it.
00:32:51:00 - 00:33:17:16
Speaker 3 - Griffin Jones
Quan. Where do you see the capacity for the market going? So you've got 120 ObGyn. You're a half a million consultations across your different disciplines. You got five eyes and that that can plug into this system for those 120 organs. How big can the market grow in terms of numbers? What do you think that you all will be able to do with conceivable.
00:33:17:16 - 00:33:19:06
Speaker 3 - Griffin Jones
How long do you think it will take?
00:33:19:08 - 00:33:42:17
Speaker 1 - Juan Moctezuma
Sure. So so I mean, what excites us the most about conceivable is really going back to the costs. And how can we really lower the prices to our consumers that are limited with their resources? So I think as, as we become, more innovative on how, we price it and the scale that we reach today we're doing, 6000 deliveries.
00:33:42:19 - 00:34:00:21
Speaker 1 - Juan Moctezuma
Per year. I think we can reach 15 or 20% of of that number, with IVF, probably in 2 or 3 years, if we are able to really communicate our product and, and leverage what already, hope IVF conceivable. I know the players are doing fantastically.
00:34:00:23 - 00:34:26:06
Speaker 3 - Griffin Jones
Do you see the insurance market in Mexico growing? Do you think that IVF will become a part of that? Might we grow from 8% to 20% to 25%, or is that not likely? Do you think it's more likely that clinics will will offer benefits directly to those larger employers that are interested?
00:34:26:08 - 00:35:02:13
Speaker 2 - Daniel Madero
Yes, all of them. That's a really great question, Griffin. Because what we are seeing at Fertility Integral and shout out to both Carrot and Maven, who are our partners, they're providing benefits for their companies in the US. But those companies have to extend the benefits here in Mexico. So because of that, there is now these push from other companies to start finding out about fertility benefits.
00:35:02:15 - 00:35:31:14
Speaker 2 - Daniel Madero
So we work with, Netflix, for example, we see Netflix, employees because they're covered by carrot. But some of the companies that are not covered are starting to come to us and say, hey, what can we do? And to be honest, Griffin, I don't want to become a benefit provider, but if I have to, I will because we will.
00:35:31:16 - 00:36:01:14
Speaker 2 - Daniel Madero
I can't do it myself. We will because the need is there. More and more companies are asking for this. And backstage we were talking about the size, the sheer size of some of the Mexican companies. So Grupo Modelo or Grupo Bimbo, these are companies with thousands and thousands of employees across Mexico, and they're going to have a need for this type of benefits at some point.
00:36:01:16 - 00:36:32:19
Speaker 2 - Daniel Madero
So I'm not going to talk about insurance per se, like private health insurance, but I can talk about the need for fertility benefits starting to rise within the market. And we are talking to a lot of companies just doing informational talks. So we I'm going to say 2 or 3 times a month, we'll be going to companies and speaking to their employees because the company came to us asking if we could do something with them.
00:36:32:21 - 00:36:50:23
Speaker 2 - Daniel Madero
The market is there now. What the future of it looks like, I don't know, but if we have to become a fertility provider benefit provider, we will. If we can do it through Carrot or Maven. I'm happy to talk to you guys. I've already told them, but yes.
00:36:51:00 - 00:36:58:23
Speaker 3 - Griffin Jones
Juan, how much is Reina Madre paying attention to? Egg freezing? What volume do you think you could grow that market to?
00:36:59:00 - 00:37:25:18
Speaker 1 - Juan Moctezuma
Yeah. So? So, with the recent conversations also with, with Josh and, people, experts in the field. Alejandro, we were highly encouraged, with the concept and with, increasing the volume because, unluckily for Reina madre, people are having less and less children. Right. So when we started putting them out of there ten years ago, there were 2.5 million babies in Mexico per year.
00:37:25:20 - 00:37:53:22
Speaker 1 - Juan Moctezuma
And today it's about 1.9 million. So it has been a huge decline. This is happening globally. But what's shifting in the mindset of, of many, women is, okay, I don't, want to have babies or right now, but what if the what if it's something that today is, is a reality? And I think that if we can be there to support them and to tell them this is kind of like an insurance, right?
00:37:54:00 - 00:38:21:13
Speaker 1 - Juan Moctezuma
Like you don't want to have babies right now. You think you don't want to have them, in the next five years. But one of you find the love of your life. What if you decide to be, a mom on your own? Like, why don't you have the option, right? And also with scale and with costs being, lower year after year, I think the market could be, two or even three times as big as the IVF, market, person.
00:38:21:13 - 00:38:29:07
Speaker 1 - Juan Moctezuma
So we as a mother are looking forward to really doing a compelling product in increasing market.
00:38:29:09 - 00:38:48:01
Speaker 3 - Griffin Jones
What do each of you want the global market, the US market, your colleagues in other countries to know about IVF in Mexico or women's health tech in Mexico, or what do you want them to pay attention to?
00:38:48:03 - 00:39:13:13
Speaker 1 - Juan Moctezuma
I would probably, repeat that Mexico is showcasing extremely high quality, extremely good outcomes and results at a fraction of of the cost. So really pay attention. Maybe come, do your egg freezing. Or maybe do the whole IVF. Then come to one of our great, vacation places and come and see Mexico with fresh eyes.
00:39:13:15 - 00:39:46:06
Speaker 2 - Daniel Madero
And I'm going to see the talent here. And the people that are working in this are trailblazers. So as a country, Mexico usually gets a bad rap in the news and with everything that's going on. But once you start seeing the city, knowing the people, seeing the talent that we have here in Mexico, your eyes are opened not only because of the sheer size of the market, but the things that are being done anywhere from fintechs.
00:39:46:08 - 00:40:12:19
Speaker 2 - Daniel Madero
So Juan was mentioning the names of probably half of the cards that are in my wallet from the tech side, Nvidia building, you know, the mega factory and also and medicine. I'm a huge fan of what trainer Maria has built, and I'm very excited to see what they're going to be building into the future. And these are business models that are not unique to Mexico, but they're being born here.
00:40:13:01 - 00:40:48:04
Speaker 2 - Daniel Madero
And people can learn from what we're doing in Mexico, either in the fertility space with conceivable, with Fertilidad Integral, or even in general in women's health as well. I would like for people to give Mexico a chance. We have incredible outcomes. We have an incredible country overall, like pick a place from Cancun, Oaxaca, San Miguel and Mexico City to the high quality of our health care.
00:40:48:06 - 00:40:56:21
Speaker 3 - Griffin Jones
Juan Moctezuma in Madero, thank you both for joining me on this special in person edition of the Inside Reproductive Health podcast.
00:40:57:02 - 00:40:58:20
Speaker 1 - Juan Moctezuma
Well, I'm here, thank you very much.
00:40:58:22 - 00:41:04:20
Speaker 2 - Daniel Madero
My pleasure. Griffin, as always, thank you very much.
00:41:04:21 - 00:41:26:03
Speaker 4
Today's advertiser helped make the production and delivery of this episode possible for free to you. But the themes expressed by the guests do not necessarily reflect the views of inside reproductive health, nor of the advertiser. The advertiser does not have editorial control over the content of this episode, and the guest appearance is not an endorsement of the advertiser.
00:41:26:05 - 00:41:28:22
Speaker 4
Thank you for listening to Inside Reproductive Health.
