This week on Inside Reproductive Health, Griffin talks with Dr. Dorette Noorhasan, fertility doctor (and patient) as she shares her journey to publishing not one, but two books in the fertility field- with a newborn at home. Always considered writing a book? What is stopping you? Listen as Dr. Noorhasan shares her experience writing and publishing her self-authored books, and find out what she wishes she knew sooner.
Listen to hear:
How the book writing process truly takes place, and how you can expedite it.
What you need to do first to save yourself time and energy in the publishing process.
Who you need on your side, and how to find them, in the publishing world.
Griffin Jones (00:05):
One day. I'm gonna write that book. One of these days, I'm gonna get around to writing that book. Does that ever describe you? Do you ever say that a lot of fertility doctors want to write a book? A lot of fertility doctors have great experience to write for the base of a book. And some of you have on today's episode, I bring on an REI who has written two books. One is Miracle Baby, A Fertility Doctor’s Fight for Motherhood. The other is The Fertility Manual: Reproductive Options for Your Family. This is Dr. Dorette Noorhasan. She practices in Dallas before she joined CCM. She used an opportunity in between practices to, uh, for parental leave for her son, as well as writing some of these books and beginning that publishing process, the lessons of which she shares with you. A lot of things that she found out the hard way that you might be able to skip over.
Griffin Jones (01:04):
But we talk about when is a good time to write the book, coming up with the concept, finding the time, how much time needs to be allocated the editors, the publishers, and the other people involved, how many phases of editing self-publishing versus publishing the traditional way and a blend of the two. So we have a lot of the why and the, the what behind it, but as well as the logistical. How so for those of you fertility specialists, thinking about writing a book, I hope that you benefit from this episode, whether you're somebody right out of fellowship or somebody who's gonna regret it, if they leave the workforce and that time thereafter never having shared with the readership, with the public, what you want to in the form of having immortalized in a book, enjoy this episode of inside reproductive health with Dr. Dorette Noorhasan, Dr. Noorhasan. Welcome Inside Reproductive Health.
Dr. Dorette Noorhasan (02:09):
Thank you for having me on the show today.
Griffin Jones (02:11):
We are gonna be cracking this big egg of how do you write that book? I know a lot of your colleagues want to write a book, some of them have, but for all of those that have written a public facing book, I think that there's 10 more, 20 more for each of those that want to, and either haven't decided on a topic haven't decided to devote the time, whatever it might be, they're intimidated by the task. Maybe it's a bucket list thing for them that they feel like they'll get to after they retire. But I really wanna unpack how to do this with you since you've done it yourself. And I wanna start with just the topic that you chose to write about and why was that important for you to do so let's just start with the book that you wrote, please introduce it and why this book now?
Dr. Dorette Noorhasan (03:06):
Yes. So very good. Thank you so much for, uh, going through that. So I've written two books. Um, the first one is called, Miracle Baby, A Fertility Doctor’s Fight for Motherhood.And that's my personal life story of what it's like to personally have gone, uh, five rounds of in vitro fertilization that is five egg retrievals. And ultimately out of that entire process, I got one good embryo and eventually transferred that embryo to a surrogate. Um, and so that book goes over what it's like to see it from both sides of the exam table and to really put myself in my patient's shoes. And then, uh, in that book as well, there is a lot of my life story. So what it was like growing up as an immigrant child and coming to America, pursuing the American dream and becoming a successful physician. So there was a bit of a motivational inspirational part of that book as well. And then the second book is the first
Griffin Jones (04:02):
Now, sorry to interrupt you. That book came out in
Dr. Dorette Noorhasan (04:06):
19 20 19. Both books came out in 2019. So Miracle Baby came out in October. And then, um, uh, the Fertility Manual came out in November, 2019. So the fertility manual reproductive options for your family, that is a book. Uh, what I've noticed over the years of practicing is that as physicians, we speak the medical terminology, and sometimes we forget to break it down for others to really, uh, describe exactly what we were speaking about in simpler terms. So what I wanted to do was write a book about, um, what it would, what patients need to know about the fertility process. So it wasn't meant to give actual, uh, um, advice, but essentially equip patients with the knowledge they need to then take that knowledge to go to their doctor or their IVF nurse and ask questions specifically about their care. So these were topics that I talked about every day. What is infertility, uh, the basic testing treatment options. I talk about donor, a donor sperm, surrogacy, something I knew quite a bit about since I personally did it. And then the, the last chapter in that book, uh, speaks about the psychological component or the psychosocial, uh, component of infertility because women do struggle, women and men, uh, do struggle with infertility and it does impact their mental health. Uh, um, so that's what the second book was about to give people some very basic knowledge. So then they can be in charge of their care.
Griffin Jones (05:32):
Did you set out to write both books at once?
Dr. Dorette Noorhasan (05:36):
Yes. So let's talk about how that happened. Um, so, uh, um, I did step rounds of IVF and, uh, we got one good embryo and we transferred it to surrogate. And, uh, I was so incredibly grateful cuz that was our only embryo and things were moving along quite nicely. And, um, she had her due date lined up and the opportunity to take some time off from private practice for a little while, uh, came up. Um, so, uh, uh, when the, the child was born and so as I was planning for his birth, I, um, started telling my patients, Hey, I'm leaving practice for a little while. I'm expecting a baby. And they're looking at me as if, you know, where's that belly, there's no belly there. Uh, um, so then I really had to go through details of what exactly I was going through, uh, with my fertility treatments.
Dr. Dorette Noorhasan (06:28):
And, uh, as I was describing that to patients, patients said to me, oh, we really, really loved you and respected you. But now that we know that you've gone through what we're going through, we respect you even more. And this went on and on. I told, I mean, I literally had to tell every patient that I was leaving and they said, you should share your story with others because other people can benefit from this story, hearing it from a physician who practices in vitro for her daily living and now is who's undergoing these types of treatments. She should be the one to tell the story. So my patients were the ones that told me I needed to tell the story. And, uh, um, my patients are, I mean, incredibly kind. Some of them showed up with gifts to my office when I was getting ready to leave to, uh, um, take some time off and work.
Dr. Dorette Noorhasan (07:15):
And they were bringing me gifts for my baby and I, some of them, I hadn't even helped them have a child as yet. And so I asked them, I said, so why are you giving me baby gifts? I haven't even helped you as yet. And they said, because you're so kind, and you're understanding, and you know what we are going through and we want, we wanna to tell you how good you are. And so they were the ones that encouraged me to write these books. Uh, uh, um, and so once my son was born in between diaper feeds or diaper changes and baby feeds, um, I sat down with a computer and just wrote these books and, uh, the words can come the words I couldn't type fast enough. I, it was the words were just coming and flowing very, very quickly. So I wrote both books incredibly quickly. Um, I wrote, uh, each book took me only about a month to write believe it or not. So the, the writing part was very quick and easy. Um, it's getting it published was the, the more difficult aspect. So
Griffin Jones (08:15):
You're a fast writer. Have you always been a fast when you've had, uh, write papers throughout your education, where you always a fast writer?
Dr. Dorette Noorhasan (08:24):
I'm a pretty fast writer. And, uh, um, and remember I was, uh, speaking on, uh, two topics that I was quite knowledgeable about. So one is my life story and what it's like to be a patient. And then the other was topics I spoke to, uh, to patients about every single day. And, uh, um, so these are easy things for me to write. Uh, um, and so, uh, I wrote the books very quickly.
Griffin Jones (08:50):
How did you decide that they were gonna be two books? That one at any point did cross your mind of, I can thread the needle somehow and make both stories into one book?
Dr. Dorette Noorhasan (09:01):
No, I ha I did. I decided there were gonna be two separate books. And the reason is the, the first book is essentially, uh, a biography of my life story or, or a memoir. Um, and so that had to, um, go in the direction of a story format, giving someone's life story and what they're going through and the dramatic roller coasters of, uh, the, the trials and tribulations that we go through in life, uh, including fertility treatments. So that one had to read more like a novel. And then the second book, um, had to read more like a self-help book or, uh, an educational aspect. So there was no way I could combine them into the same book. They had to have been separate books.
Griffin Jones (09:42):
So you identified two very distinct concepts. And so it, so it was the concept about your journey that came up first, and then by sharing that idea with people, it was the concept from the manual that came second. Or am I out of order?
Dr. Dorette Noorhasan (09:59):
You're in order? That's correct. Exactly. So the novel came first and then sharing basic, uh, fertility treatment options came second. Correct.
Griffin Jones (10:07):
And each book took you about a month to write.
Dr. Dorette Noorhasan (10:11):
Yeah. So two months, total, each book took about a month
Griffin Jones (10:14):
With it. This is not an immaterial question from my vantage point. I think it's germane to people thinking about taking the time off where those two months after the baby was born or, or leading up.
Dr. Dorette Noorhasan (10:30):
So after the baby was born, I took many months off. I took, uh, essentially a year off I, his first year of life. I was at home the whole year. Uh, um, so, uh, um, I wrote the books in the first several months, uh, um, uh, um, after he was born.
Griffin Jones (10:45):
So what I'm wondering is, is how much time does someone need to take off? Of course, it's gonna vary to pay based on the individual, but can somebody do this without some kind of sabbatical as far as you can tell?
Dr. Dorette Noorhasan (11:04):
Yes, they can. It depends again on the topic, if it's something simple and easy, like writing your life story, you should be able to tell your life story in a book, um, as if you could tell some aspect about your day over dinner to someone else. Uh, um, so those, those things were, I felt were easy and, you know, I could have done it on over weekends if I wanted to, uh, um, uh, but I felt the topics were easy now, had I written on a topic that I was not familiar with, like something that's not my life story or something that I don't speak about every single day that would require time research, uh, um, that would require a lot more time than just sitting and letting the words come through.
Griffin Jones (11:50):
Well, I could think of my life story, I guess, and get it out on paper, but making it interesting would be a different task entirely. So how did that order work? Did you first just start, you know, writing out things chronologically, when did you start thinking about how you were gonna say it, did that come as you were writing it or more in the editing process?
Dr. Dorette Noorhasan (12:17):
So that came a little bit before I started writing. So I I knew I was gonna write these books before, right before I left practice. And, um, I made mental notes, uh, literally just mental notes of how I was gonna write it. Um, and just like you said, chronological order seemed like the best way to go. Just, it flows easily with chronological order. And so, um, that's how I pursued it. Just a chronological order.
Griffin Jones (12:42):
Okay. So, the concepts came to you before you, you took the time off, then you took the time off, they took a, uh, about a month each. Did you then start working on the launching process, the editing process after book one before book two or, or were they around the same time?
Dr. Dorette Noorhasan (13:05):
So here comes, the harder part that writing the books was very easy for me, the harder part. So I thought, okay, Hey, I have these two books these days, and I've written them already. Uh, um, uh, at least the first, what I thought was a very reasonable first draft of them. Uh, so I started contacting publishers and, um, about a month or two went by and crickets didn't hear back from anyone. And I didn't spend enough time researching the process of writing a book. So let's talk about the process and I, I will share the mistakes I've made and hopefully others can learn from my mistakes as well. Um, so the process, um, so after I didn't hear back from any of these publishers, couple months went by, I decided to get on YouTube, Google, how to write a book, how to get it published, how to figure this out on my own and what I found.
Dr. Dorette Noorhasan (14:02):
Um, and so I started with the first book, miracle, baby, uh, uh, the novel. And, uh, what I found was publishers wanted me to write a book proposal first, and I needed to send this book proposal to a literary agent. So I could not contact the publishers directly. I needed a middleman called the literary agent that I would send this book proposal to. They were vet would vet it, and then they send it to the publisher. So I went about writing this book proposal. Now the book proposal took quite some time. So here, here are the, the key aspects of the book proposal. Um, the first part is just one paragraph, which is what's your elevator pitch, two minutes in an elevator one. You, if you had two minutes in an elevator with someone, describe what your book was about. And then the next thing part of the book proposal was what are my qualifications?
Dr. Dorette Noorhasan (14:54):
What makes me credible to write on this process and, uh, who my intended audience were another aspect of the book proposal, which is the aspect I find I found to be the most time consuming is that I had to research and read every single book that was a potentially a competitive book to the books that I wanted to publish. So I had to research and read them and then figure out why was my two books different than these books, and why should any publisher want to publish my books? Uh, so that took quite some time to research order. All these books read through all of them and then figure out why was mine so different? What
Griffin Jones (15:40):
Books did that end up being?
Dr. Dorette Noorhasan (15:42):
Oh, quite a few. This was a few years ago. It was quite a few, I think it took me like four months or so to get through all of them. It was quite a few books I went through. I, I, I don't remember how many, but it was, it was quite a few books.
Griffin Jones (15:54):
I I'm talking like 10 books or like 200 books or,
Dr. Dorette Noorhasan (15:57):
Uh, not 200. Um, it was a little bit more than 10. Um, maybe 20 or 30, if I, if I could remember it was, it was, it was, it was quite a few. I mean, it was, it was pretty exhaustive, uh, uh, method to go through each book. It was certainly was not 200. Um, so I had to go through each book and figure out why mine was different and why should a publisher consider mine? Um, uh, um, and then the other aspects of the book proposal, uh, you had to summarize each chapter. So just a one paragraph summary of each chapter, which that didn't take any time. Uh, um, and then they wanted, some of them wanted your first chapter as, uh, a sample of your writing. Some wanted your first three chapters as a sample. So all of that had to go into the book proposal.
Dr. Dorette Noorhasan (16:41):
So it took me several months to do this part. Um, so I did this part, wrote the book proposal and sent it to every single literary agent that I could Google and find. And, um, I sent it probably to over a hundred people. I, I, it was quite a few people and I had to customize each, uh, um, book proposal to match what they were looking for, because not everyone, everyone wanted the exact same format, uh, of the book proposal. So some I had to customize each one for each person that I sent it to.
Griffin Jones (17:16):
And so this, when you're sending it to a hundred people, this is a hundred different publishers or a hundred different literary agents,
Dr. Dorette Noorhasan (17:21):
Literary agents now. So, uh, um, so I found names online. Uh, I started looking, uh, into what types of books. They, they look at those types of things and uh, just sent it and just cross my fingers. Uh, you know, I believe in the fact that if you don't try, you will never know. And so I just tried and sent it to everyone. Um, and I heard back from a few, a few people. So just maybe four people, probably not, not, not many. Um, and essentially what they said was that I was not a celebrity or someone where they think they, some, a publisher would be interested in my books. So for example, I'm not a celebrity, I'm not a Kim Kardashian who has millions of followers. Why would someone want to read Dre Hasen books? Why does, is anyone interested in Dresner Hasen life story or what she has to say about infertility?
Dr. Dorette Noorhasan (18:17):
And now infertility is really a big topic, but from their perspective, from a marketing standpoint, they wanna know is this person marketable and they didn't see that. And so I was pretty depressed after that. I'm like, okay, so I just wasted all this time. <laugh> doing all this stuff. And, uh, it was, it was pretty sad and it was pretty, I felt very defeated. Um, and so around that time I ran into, uh, uh, several different people. So, uh, I ran into a friend. I hadn't seen it in, in about a year or two and she had just self-published books on Amazon and, uh, self-publishing on Amazon is free. And so I looked into it, but here are the difficult aspects of that is that self-publishing on Amazon. There is no editing, there's no formatting. And so really anyone can self-publish. And so once you self-publish, you are in a bucket of books where no one has vetted those books, uh, to know if they're good,
Griffin Jones (19:24):
9% of 'em suck for that reason. Probably so.
Dr. Dorette Noorhasan (19:31):
And then the second reason, um, at, at that time, Amazon had less than 10% of the book market. And the main reason I wrote these books were because my patients asked me to, so in
Griffin Jones (19:44):
20 Amazon had less
Dr. Dorette Noorhasan (19:46):
Than 10%, this, this was 2018. I think this was 2018 when I looked at it, uh, um, 2018 that this was, it was less than 10% of the book market or the ability to reach people. And when you
Griffin Jones (19:56):
Say book market, are we talking about book sales or book publishing?
Dr. Dorette Noorhasan (20:01):
I think, I think all of it in terms of books. Um, and so when I looked at that, the main reason for writing it is I wanted to reach as many patients as possible as many women and people as possible struggling with infertility. And I didn't feel like that was gonna help me. So I thought about it and I let it go for a little bit. And then, uh, I, uh, was in church one day and, uh, um, there was a guest speaker and he's a motivational speaker. And he talked about the fact that he self-published, and he was kind enough to chat with me for a few minutes after, uh, uh, church and same thing. He told me about the self-publishing route, those types of things. And then about a week later at a physician and, uh, um, this, her story really struck me.
Dr. Dorette Noorhasan (20:50):
Uh, um, so she, uh, was a very busy physician in practice and got diag then, uh, was diagnosed with cancer and, uh, eventually gave up, uh, practicing, uh, um, I is a survivor from cancer and now has written eight books, uh, um, on things like surviving cancer, motivation. She's a motivational speaker. Um, her first seven of those eight books, she had a literary agent who then took it to the publisher and they were easily published. And when she got around to writing her eighth book, which she tells me her eighth book was probably the best of all her books, because she had gotten really good at that point in terms of writing, when she finally did her eighth book, her literary agent retired, and she didn't have anyone to take it to the publisher. At that point, she couldn't get her eighth book published here.
Dr. Dorette Noorhasan (21:46):
She is a physician, she's a cancer survivor is writing on a topic that she's well versed on. She already has seven books published and no one is picking up her eighth book. And, and this is supposedly a better book than her previous seven. And so she decided to self publish and she told me about her self-publishing, uh, route. Um, and I was getting now many months have gone by, and I was getting to the point of where in, in a couple months I would be going back to work full time. And, uh, um, so now having a child, a baby, um, going back to private practice, you know, I told her about what I was struggling with in terms of getting books published, or my two books published the traditional way. And she told me about these publishers that are, uh, um, they help you with the self-publishing process, but they're essentially real publishers.
Dr. Dorette Noorhasan (22:43):
Uh, um, but you, the author meaning me would have to fund the publishing part as well as the marketing part. Um, but at least I, I could at least have them do it. I wouldn't have to worry about editing or all of those things. And so I looked into those, uh, and so there were several publishers, um, that helped with the self-publishing process. Um, and that was also that took some time. Um, I remember, uh, um, interacting with, uh, uh, uh, um, a publisher, um, in New York and they wanted me to sign this long legal agreement. And if I, if I had had failed to publish the book within three years of signing that agreement, then they had the right to publish the book. It was, it was very, very interesting. Um, and then I eventually found, uh, a publisher here in the Dallas school worth area, um, who I was able to meet them in person and interact with them.
Dr. Dorette Noorhasan (23:41):
And I gave them a hard copy of my book, the entire book, uh, um, and let them read it. Um, and they decided they would help me with publishing it. And so that's, so I signed a contract with them and they helped me publish both books. Um, and it was easier for me that way. Um, I was about to start private practice again, where I'm insanely busy. I have a, a, a young child and, uh, there was no way I could do all of that. Um, so after I signed the contract with them, uh, um, there's still another year worth of work after that. Um, so I signed the contract with them, I wanna say maybe September, October of 2018. Um, and then, then books would come out in October, November of 2019, but there's a process. So there are several rounds of editing. The first round, the first editor is, uh, an editor that edits just for content only, um, and that one quite well.
Dr. Dorette Noorhasan (24:41):
Um, then there's a second editor that re edits for grammar, uh, uh, making sure everything flows smoothly. And then there's a third editor that ed just does the final proof editing. So there's a series of editing for both books that happen. They were very instrumental in terms of helping me with the cover. I knew kind of what I wanted for the cover, but they were very instrumental in terms of doing the graphics, things that I didn't have time to do. Um, incredibly instrumental in the book, the fertility manual, I have a figure of the, uh, female reproductive system. And they were incredibly instrumental in terms of tailoring that figure to exactly what I wanted it to show. Um, so I found that incredibly helpful. Um, and I, I, I'm incredibly lucky that I had written very good first drafts of those books. And it did not take a lot of read in, um, so I didn't have to go back to the drawing board, uh, um, but the, uh, those publishers, um, or, or the editors were incredibly helpful.
Dr. Dorette Noorhasan (25:42):
Um, and then once all of that was done, that took another six months going through several rounds of editing through the three different editors. Uh, um, we had to work in marketing, doing interviews, uh, um, social media. So I, I was very good about being a doctor. I forgot about doing things like social media and the, the huge aspect that has, and social media is free. I, I mean, I have a Facebook account and a LinkedIn account at that time. I had Facebook and then LinkedIn, but I didn't have Instagram. I didn't have Twitter. I didn't have many of those things. So I had to learn social media, create profiles and figure out how to use my social media to really get my books out there. And we did a very good job in terms of marketing the books prior to the release states. And then, so the release states were in, uh, um, October, November of 2019, and then COVID hits March of 2020, uh, uh, um, and while there were a lot of people at home reading books, uh, after COVID, um, the publisher, the marketing company, they lost all their employees. No one was working at that point. And so really not much was, was done with my books during that timeframe. So took another year plus before we really started, uh, remarketing the books.
Griffin Jones (00:00):
Couple months ago, I did an episode with Steve Rooks that had to do with engaged MD. And I got so many emails from people saying, oh, we use engaged MD. We love engaged MD and might end up having those people on the show too. But if you're a practice that doesn't use engaged MD, you're now in the minority of practices. And why do people keep saying this to me? Why did engaged MD become inside reproductive Health's first sponsor after three plus years of being a podcast in this field? Why did I hold out for engaged MD to be the first sponsor? Because they're the only ones that I've only heard good things about. And I swear somebody must have bad things to say about them. And I keep saying, email me if you do. I haven't gotten that yet. All I hear from people is how it's reduced the workload for their nurses, how their patients are better informed how the rapport between the nurses and the staff and the providers is better with the patients because they've been educated.
Griffin Jones (01:05):
And then that time gets to be tailor, fit customized for that individual patient, how they have true informed consent and not just signing a stack of papers, but they understand what's being given to them and it's accounted for and office staff doesn't have to track all that down. This is why I keep hearing overwhelmingly positive things about engaged MD. So if you wanna join the ranks of these very happy people, you can go to engaged md.com/irh. You don't have to, you can keep adding more work for your staff. If you want. You can keep having more exposed risk and less informed consent if you want. But if you want what is described to me as somebody who's a third party as the biggest upside for your practice, I recommend going to engaged md.com/irh. If you wanna stick it to me, you don't have to tell them that I sent you, but it does help the show.
Griffin Jones (02:07):
And it does also get you a 25% off your implementation fee, engage md.com/irh. So one tip of advice would be don't write a book six months before any type of global catastrophe <laugh>. If anybody can predict that they should try to avoid it. The, in, when you're talking about the proposal that you had, uh, Marshall for the literary agent at was there an I got the elevator pitch you had to research, uh, 20 or 30 other books. I I've never heard that, that before. Did you have to submit an outline at that? Here's here's my chapter outline and here's two sample chapters. Did you have to do that at any point in the process?
Dr. Dorette Noorhasan (02:53):
Yep. That was all part of the book proposal.
Griffin Jones (02:55):
So that was that's in the proposal process. Is it all kind like, is it all in one phase, do they ask you for everything at once or do they phase it like, okay, first give us your elevator pitch. Okay. And your qualifications. Okay. Now that you've given us your elevator pitch and your qualifications, now give us the re you know, the competitive analysis of these 30 books. And, and now that you've done that, give us the outline in the two sample chapters, did they phase it or was it all one ask from all of the literary agents?
Dr. Dorette Noorhasan (03:27):
It was pretty much one ask. So they just wanted a document pretty much with everything in it,
Griffin Jones (03:33):
So, okay. So then, so you, you, you exhaust that PO PO possibility, or you, you know, you, you talk to about a hundred different literary agents. You go to Amazon, start to research self-publishing, but it's a crab shoot, and you could be totally lost in the mere. So you choose this other option. And I wanna make sure that I understand what kind of firm this is. So they are not a publishing house themselves, or they, they help you to publish on Amazon. Can you, can you go back to that concept? Mm-hmm
Dr. Dorette Noorhasan (04:15):
<affirmative> they are a publishing publisher themselves. They are a true publisher. That's correct. Uh, uh, um, uh, um, but, uh, um, the way how the traditional publishing route works is you are a celebrity and they essentially foot the whole bill, and then they get a large part of the, um, uh, the income that comes through, um, because they did all the marketing, did everything. Um, they, these types of companies, they are true publishers. Um, but the author essentially puts the bill in terms of, uh, getting the books published and marketing.
Griffin Jones (04:52):
Okay. Um, and then, and, and by getting the books published, that means the, the printing or the design cost for the ebook, the distribution cost. Is that right? Yep.
Dr. Dorette Noorhasan (05:04):
Okay. That's right.
Griffin Jones (05:06):
Um, and then are you paying for them for an editor? Is that all like part of a consultancy fee or is it, uh, is there some kind of fee upfront and then per volume type fee, how does a fee structure like that work for someone interested in that path?
Dr. Dorette Noorhasan (05:25):
So the, the publishing fees all in one package, uh, um, so it includes the editing, everything just till the books published. Um, and then, uh, once the books are published and it includes X number of books being published as well. And then, uh, once that happens, uh, when you want, once you've sold all those books and you wanna publish more than, there'll be another fee for that. Uh, um, so it, it's all part of the package price.
Griffin Jones (05:51):
And then after that, do they get a cut of what you sell? How long do they stay involved in having a claim to what you're producing?
Dr. Dorette Noorhasan (06:03):
Well, so, so the books, the rights, the books belong to me. Um, and that's the great part about this is that the rights of the book only belong to me at, at, at, at this point in time. Um, and so whenever I wanna stop, stop the production of the books, I can.
Griffin Jones (06:20):
And so do they have any kind of marketing framework for you to L leverage? You know, do they have like, oh, like here's, uh, like a PR agency that we work with or, or mm-hmm, <affirmative>, uh, here's a, a way of be us being able to book you some media spots or is it, Hey, go figure out how to use TikTok kids.
Dr. Dorette Noorhasan (06:45):
<laugh> um, they, they do have a PR agency, uh, that I use, correct. They do have a PR agency. And then I also have figured out my social media on my own, uh, during that COVID shutdown, there was a good six weeks or so where essentially everything was shut down and only, uh, emergent, uh, surgeries were being done in hospitals and clinics. And so, uh, um, I was essentially at home for essentially six weeks. Um, may I may have want gone to the office one or two times a week. Um, but during that timeframe as well, I started my own YouTube channel. I figured out how to do it, uh, um, and just recently started my own TikTok, um, uh, um, but they have a PR firm that helps set up, uh, uh, interviews as well, uh, for me, but I've been managing my own social media. Um, they do have, uh, um, their PR firm can manage your social media for you, but I kind of like managing my own social media. I, I put my own content out. It's, it's nice. It's um, and it's my way of, uh, um, people seeing me, not just a doctor, but seeing a mother, uh, seeing some of the things that I like doing like running or yoga or things that I'm involved in. Uh, um, so I like doing my own social media now initially was work, but once I figured it out, it's, it's easy.
Griffin Jones (08:00):
So how much of your social media now is still in service to promoting the book versus how much of it has become its completely own thing at this point?
Dr. Dorette Noorhasan (08:13):
A lot of it has become its completely own thing. So I, I, I will post pictures about what I'm doing or um, uh, um, pictures of patients, uh, and the, uh, who sent me their baby photos or, uh, uh, things that are going on at this timeframe or for example, um, uh, if one of my employees, uh, was the employee of the quarter, I post things. So a lot of it now is about me and what I'm doing at work or what I'm doing with my books or things that, uh, a new interest that I have. So a lot of it is about me.
Griffin Jones (08:47):
Does your book give you a sort of, I dunno, an anthology from, to make other types of content, do you used it in that way? Like I have this romantic idea of when I write a book outside of the fertility space and I grow a different part of my social media arm, that it will be easier to create social content at that point because I'll be, oh, like, this is a concept from the book I'm gonna make a video about this concept. I'll make different pieces of social content from different concepts of the book. That might be just me thinking the grass is always greener. Do you use your book in that way?
Dr. Dorette Noorhasan (09:32):
I do. I do. I absolutely do use my book in that way. Um, so the fertility manual, it's, it's just fertility. And so things like posting baby pictures, those types of things, but the, the, the memoir about my life story, there are multiple aspects about that book I use. Um, so, uh, the last chapter in that book talk talks about me running a half marathon. So I'll post pictures of me exercising or, uh, um, a large aspect of that book, talks about my upbringing as an immigrant who then moved to America. So for example, a couple weeks ago, I posted a picture of, um, this year, it was 20 years since I earned my MD degree. So I posted a picture, um, of, uh, that we took 20 years ago, me and my family, uh, um, of, of what it was like to be an immigrant. And you know, my sister and I were the first two to go to college and then to medical school, uh, um, and, and tie it into the book, um, because the book is my life story of that upbringing as well. Uh, um, so I've been able to tie a lot of it into the book.
Griffin Jones (10:32):
When did you feel like you had permission for yourself to write the book? I know that's kind of like a trite Brene brownie type of word, give yourself permission that, but I sometimes think like no imposter syndrome can be a good thing. There's a ton of imposters out there right now. I feel like I'm writing a business book right now by actually running the business, operating the business. I don't think that I can write the book yet. I think there's a couple Cardinal challenges that really have to figure out and earn, I guess, like I could write like a, like a smaller sales book, but, but like the book that I wanna write, I feel like I'm gaining the experience right now to be able to write it someday. At what point, the point that you wrote it is that when was that like, okay, now is time or had you felt that way for a while?
Dr. Dorette Noorhasan (11:32):
That's a really, really good question. Um, so my patients were the ones that motivated me to write this book and, um, I will tell you I'm a super private person. I mean, I did those five rounds of IVF happened over several years and I never told anyone about it. It was very, very private, even my friends, uh, didn't know anything about it because I didn't want people asking me, well, how come this cycle didn't work and what are you gonna do next? It was a super private event. So I ver, I mean, my patients didn't even know had any idea. I was even doing IVF. Um, I remember one of my egg retrievals. I went to work that morning. I did an egg retrieval in my own patients then changed clothes, got into the stretcher and that one of my colleagues do my own egg retrieval.
Dr. Dorette Noorhasan (12:16):
So no one, I, I never really missed a beat in terms of work. No one really knew I was, I was doing this and sharing my personal story with, I was super scared to, to share my personal story because I've lived such a private life and I've been super careful about not sharing things I'm going through. I mean, who wants to hear a doctor complain about what she's doing? Uh, um, so I've been super careful about not sharing anything. And so my patients motivated me to write these books. So I did it, uh, I wrote them and I wrote them really fast and it was easy and it was quick. And then I had a breakdown. I'm like, oh my God, I'm actually going to really do this. So I let my husband read the first drafts of both books. Um, and I cuz I mean, he's involved in it.
Dr. Dorette Noorhasan (13:02):
And there, especially in the memoir, I talks about our, you know, our, our marriage and you know, us going through fertility treatments. And I said, are you comfortable with me sharing this information? And he's so incredibly supportive. He's like, yes, go ahead. Do it. So he read the first draft of that book. I had him read the second draft or, or the first draft of the second book, the fertility manual. And, uh, after he read this book, he said to me, he's like, why didn't you write this book before he, because now I finally understood what or understand what infertility is as we are going through the whole process. He, he doesn't, he's not in medicine. And all he did was just trust me that I was making all the right decisions for us to do this. And he had no idea what we were going through or really had a good grasp of the knowledge of anything we were doing.
Dr. Dorette Noorhasan (13:50):
And so he was so grateful for that book. He's like, people need to have this book just so they can have some basic understanding of fertility. And so I felt good again. Okay. My husband was comfortable with me publishing these books and I was fine. And after the publisher accepted, uh, the books and I signed the contract, then I had another nervous breakdown, like, oh my God, this is real. People are gonna know my life story. Do I really wanna share this? And so I, uh, I, I, I called one of my girlfriends. She's known me for, oh my God, for probably 20 years. And just had like the super long talk with her. And she's like, just do it you're you wanna do it? And if, if, if people judge you, it's okay, you're just, you're human. So go ahead and do it and don't be afraid. And so I did it, but yeah, I, every time I thought I was going to do it, I, I had a breakdown. Uh, um, so I didn't give myself permission. I gave myself initially to answer your question, and then, you know, I doubted myself and then I gave myself permission and I doubted myself again and then gave myself permission. So this was a constant thing.
Griffin Jones (15:01):
So the voices sounded like they were from not necessarily being used to bearing yourself so publicly, and you're involving your family and, and not sure if you were ready for that, did the voice. And if it didn't just say no, but I'm curious, did the voice of your colleagues pop into your head at all?
Dr. Dorette Noorhasan (15:22):
It did. Uh, uh, um, and, and that was also one of the things, uh, um, that I, I spoke to my girlfriend about it. I, I was worried that people would judge me for writing a book. Uh, um, and I'm not sure why people would judge me, but I, I, should I be sharing all of that information? Uh, um, and, uh, uh, I, I, I was scared and, um, I finally decided to do it. And the book's been out now for three years or almost three years, I guess,
Griffin Jones (15:54):
Why would they, because, well, I guess it depends on how well your practice is doing how well the book is doing, how well their practice is doing, how well they either did or decided not to write their book, our as a competitive, they're a competitive bunch. And, uh, and they can be, uh, extremely supportive of each other. And, uh, and sometimes they cannot be. And so I think that, that I, I might be assuming too much, but I don't think that I am I, that that could be a hindrance for some of your colleagues is like, what will the other colleagues say? And I guess I would think, well, if they're just gonna talk trash anyway, so who cares if you wanna write the book, you might as well, if, if you might as well write, and I'm not talking about any one person I, uh, and, or, or any one initiative, but, uh, I do know that, uh, that's something that, that holds people back quite often. And, uh, and I wonder that as you start to, to see more positive feedback from the book, how did that play into your practice?
Dr. Dorette Noorhasan (17:13):
I didn't know that this would happen, but my books have had a positive impact on my private practice. Um, and I didn't realize that that would happen when I, I mean, I wrote the books because patients asked me to share my story. Um, and the books are doing reasonably well, but my private practice has done amazingly well because now patients see me as a credible person. Um, they have, I, they have identified with me as someone who has stood in their shoes and know what it's like to do infertility treatments, um, and because of the books, uh, um, I, and my social media, I'm, I mean, if you Google my name, you'll find pages and pages on me five, six years ago, before I wrote these books with me just being private practice. I, I mean, you maybe find a page worth of me on, on Google.
Dr. Dorette Noorhasan (18:07):
Um, so it's dramatically increased awareness of Dre Hassan, and I'm, I have patients coming from all over the country. I mean, and because of COVID and I still do quite a bit of telehealth patients do tons of telehealth with me, and then they come into my private practice for the one day workups. So they just come one day and do all their testing. Uh, um, and then it, I I'm conveniently located where they can stay at a hotel when they come for their treatments, the books, while it, you know, it it's done just okay, as books in terms of its ability to help me in practice, it has made a dramatic impact on my practice. Um, and I had no idea that that would happen, uh, uh, um, but it's given me credibility, um, which, uh, um, has really improved my practice.
Griffin Jones (18:57):
That impact as a new patient generator or from when new patients have, have maybe already scheduled with you or, or they come to find out about you, they read the book and then that rapport helps with their treatment process,
Dr. Dorette Noorhasan (19:15):
Both, both.
Griffin Jones (19:17):
So you've seen a, a big positive impact from the book in, in your private practice. It let you explore your point of view. And I, I wanna dig into, I wanna circle back to that, because in the beginning of the interview, you felt like, man, I, I did all of this for nothing. When you were figuring out that whole literary agent rigamaroo did, but did you feel like when you wrote those, I know it was fast for use, but did you feel like you were able to articulate a point of view that you couldn't before? Cuz I stopped writing, uh, articles in probably 20 17, 20 18, 20. I just got too busy running the firm and, and I started the podcast in 2019. I was like, well I don't need to write anymore. I've just banging out one podcast episode after another. And you could see by me re realizing in the beginning of this interview, oh, there's two books. How much preparation that I do for each interview. But, uh, I, I, and I was really growing my audience from the podcast side, but I was missing the crafting of the point of view. And until you write it's like, how do I even know what I believe until I mold it like clay? And so did you feel that way? Did it all just come out so naturally that and so quickly that you're like, okay, well that was just me getting it out there. Or did you craft a point of view?
Dr. Dorette Noorhasan (20:55):
It, it, it came out naturally. I, I got really, really lucky. Like for it just all just came out. I'm, I'm telling you, my fingers could not keep up fast enough on the keyboard as the, the words were just coming to me. And I'm, I remember one night I was sitting at the desk and Wes, like 1:00 AM the kids finally asleep and I'm just banging out words. I mean, I wrote like two, three chapters at night cuz I just, it was just coming and flowing and I'm like, I don't wanna lose this. I feel everything. It it's coming to me right now and I just need to get it on paper or word document, uh, um, uh, um, I needed to get it on paper. Uh, um, but it, it came naturally, which I'm very grateful for.
Griffin Jones (21:33):
How different was that third editor's pass from your first draft?
Dr. Dorette Noorhasan (21:38):
Not very different. I mean, I, I got, so I got really lucky because, uh, um, those, uh, the, the editing, I mean, if, if they did a lot of red ink, I would've had to come back to the drawing board. Uh, um, and I, I got really lucky, uh, um, and incredibly grateful. I mean, things worked out well.
Griffin Jones (21:58):
So I suspect that might be related to the, how much time someone needs to write as well. Do they need a sabbatical? Do they need an extended vacation? Whatever it might be. My drafts are so much different from the final product from the first draft. The first draft is like, I wouldn't give to an eighth grader to read. And when people pay me compliments on one of the articles that I write usually takes me 20 hour hours to write that article. And I've gotten it down with some help to probably maybe like eight or 10, but it still takes me a while. And it's a lot of iterations. And so you ha it sounds like you, you have a gift to where, like you knew what you wanted to say from the get, and that could be a difference in how much time it takes someone, uh, because you can find out what you wanna say by writing with regard to the process, knowing what you know, now, even even know what a literary area agent was when you set off to do all of this, and you didn't know about the different avenues of publishing, what would you advise a colleague to do differently?
Griffin Jones (23:09):
If anything?
Dr. Dorette Noorhasan (23:10):
Very, very good question. So, uh, um, better way to do it is to build your name first, um, social media, those types of things, uh, um, you wanna become like a mini celebrity, um, because then it makes you more marketable when you go to these publishers. So that would've been the way to go first. It's it's very interesting though. It's it's like the chicken or egg, which came first, because if, if you, uh, have a ton of social media, you are, you've done a gazillion interviews. You have very wide pre presence. Publishers are gonna want gonna wanna pick you up, but if you don't have those things and you have a great ID for a book, but no one wants to pick you up, well, you'll never get all those presences, the presence that you want on, uh, social media or those types of things. And it's, it, it really is the chicken or the egg. Um, so if you, if I had to do it all over again, I would say, start with social media market myself more, make my name bigger, then go to, uh, writing the book, uh, um, would be the, the next way to go.
Griffin Jones (24:17):
Would you go the self publishing route again? Or would you go to, uh, if let's say you're the, you're a mini celebrity, uh, do you go the, and by mini celebrity, I don't know, like somebody that works on the today show, I guess like, uh, you know, like one of the, one of the people, like maybe not a Kim Kardashian obviously, but, but somebody that has maybe a couple hundred thousand followers at that point, do you, uh, do you go back to self-publishing or do you, do you, do you go the traditional publishing route?
Dr. Dorette Noorhasan (24:51):
I would try both and see what happens. I really would try both and see what, what happens. I, I have a fantastic relationship with my current publisher and they're here in Dallas, which has been very beneficial. I've gone into their offices, uh, numerous times. I know everyone there. So that part is really good. Um, uh, but if you, um, you know, you have a hundred, 200,000 followers and social media, then maybe you could go the traditional route, uh, um, because you already have a large following.
Griffin Jones (25:23):
Well, we've talked about the why behind the book, we talked about the impact that it's had on your practice and your rapport with patients. We talked about how to do it. You get to decide how you want to, uh, conclude the show. This is your colleagues listening, other Reis and other REI practice owners. How would you like to conclude this topic with them?
Dr. Dorette Noorhasan (25:50):
If writing a book is something that you're interested in doing, I think you should do it.
Griffin Jones (25:55):
Where can people contact you?
Dr. Dorette Noorhasan (25:58):
Uh, um, social media, I'm on all forms of social media and my, um, ism. So D uh, uh, my books are on the website, just www.dot com. So just my last name.com
Griffin Jones (26:17):
Who last we'll link to both of those books, show notes. One is the fertility manual reproductive options for your family. The other is miracle baby, a fertility doctor's fight for motherhood, drin. Thank you so much for coming on inside reproductive health.
Dr. Dorette Noorhasan (26:33):
Thank you for your time.
Speaker 3 (26:36):
You've been listening to the inside reproductive health podcast with Griffin Jones. If you're ready to take action, to make sure that your practice thrives beyond the revolutionary changes that are happening in our field and in society, visit fertility bridge.com to begin the first piece of the fertility marketing system, the goal and competitive diagnostic. Thank you for listening to inside reproductive health.